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THERESE NELSON

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Fast and Furious Attorney General Eric Holder's Obstruction of Justice, is this FuriousGate?

Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:03 PM EST
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By Therese Nelson
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More damaging emails on the "Fast and Furious" scandal were received by Congressman Darrell Issa, of the Congressional Committee on Government Oversight and Reform, had received within a twenty four hour period.

Mike Vanderboegh, citizen investigative reporter, attended the Washington hearings of the House Judiciary Committee during the questioning of Attorney General Eric Holder on the Fast and Furious scandals. Rep Issa stated he would release more information.

 Vanderboegh stated that this could cause a political tsunami stated:

"Wouldn't be surprised, now that Issa dropped the tactical nuke of more emails "turned over last evening" (meaning that somebody else has rolled--either breuer or Weinstein--that Holder's resignation "for the good of the adminstration to avoid further distraction will be announced late tomorrow ".

 The citizen reported

'The game is by no means ended. If anything, it is just beginning"

Eric Holder stated he would guarantee we will have another Oversight Committee hearing in January. 

 This may not be enough for Rep Issa due to the political storm that would ensue due to the findings in the emails, and if there is more evidence of obstruction/deception of Holder.  There are many questions on who was the highest official who had/should knowledge of this International incident where a Federal Agent, Brian Terry.,was murdered. Attorney General Holder admitted he knew there would be more murders on both sides of the border in the future? This is an international scandal of epic proportions that is being consistently ignored or obstructed by Atorney General Eric Holder. President Obama has consistently stated he has "full confidence" in Holder. That does not seem to be shared by the Oversight Committee and over 50 members of Congress.

 We should ask if this will end with the Impeachment of President Obama, it is said that the Hiliary Clinton supporters are banding up in case this causes President Obama to not be the Democrat Candidate for President.

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Therese Nelson

Over 50 members of Congress are asking for Atty General Eric Holder to resign.

Holder admits there will be more murders on both sides of the border from this scandal of Fast and Furious.

What do you think?

  • 15 votes
#1 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:12 PM EST
Rob-LVNevada

My "state of mind" says he should have been gone months ago. He is an embarassment to our nation.

  • 15 votes
#1.1 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:31 PM EST
Charlie Courtois

Hi Therese,

From the first day that "Fast & Furious" came to light my antenna said, "Go to Holder, and find out the whole story." All the people who report to Holder were walking on eggs this whole time. This is an embarrassment to our nation, and it's now being obfuscated, and kept in the shadows.

This is a "cover-up" which smells to high heaven the longer it festers, and remains unresolved.

When you find one cockroach, you'll usually find a whole lot more.

  • 17 votes
#1.2 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:59 PM EST
Ripley8

seems Eric Holder learned alot from the Bush administration and AG Gonzales .

  • 14 votes
#1.3 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:03 PM EST
fedupwithliberals

seems Eric Holder learned alot from the Bush administration and AG Gonzales .

Sigh...the "blame Bush" mantra never gets old for some. Next we'll be called racists for questioning Holder's involvement.

  • 15 votes
#1.4 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:25 PM EST
Charlie Courtois

Well put Fedup!

The liberals are good at playing the blame game. They will rally together over any cause be it right or wrong, but rally they will, just like on these blogs.

Everyone else is at fault except them. Obama has just about run out of people and events to blame. It's his economy, it's his job creation failure, it's his 4 trillion dollars of debt that's drowning us, and what is he doing about it? Nothing! He said he was too busy to supervise the "Special Debt Commission -bipartisan," and he washed his hands of the matter like it was just way beneath him to get his hands dirty.

  • 16 votes
#1.5 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 7:12 PM EST
greg-709692

I've noticed that Liberals always change the subject instead of discussing what is supposed to be discussed, Like, Holder did wrong, very wrong, and people did and will die because of it.

  • 9 votes
#1.6 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:57 PM EST
Kearney Outlaw

I'm a liberal. I'm not changing the subject. I think it ought to be investigated and if Holder is found guilty, he ought to be charged. What's so complicated about this?

  • 11 votes
#1.7 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 9:00 PM EST
Therese Nelson

Dear Rob,

I agree, this man is truly an embarassment to US. It is totally blatant he is inept + cannot handle his job. His arrogance and smirk while being questioned in Congress is obvious, he just does not get it. Holder, your fired we can do better.

  • 6 votes
#1.8 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:34 AM EST
Therese Nelson

Dear Charlie,

Yes, this scandal does smell and the "stonewalling" is now being called "obstruction". When you are called before Congress it is perjury to lie and if you obstruct the investigation it is also a crime, Holder has done both.

Pres Obama insisting that he still has "full confidence" in Holder is alarming and if his Atty Gen did not advise him of this International scandal, they both should go. If Holder did advise the Pres and he said he did not, Obama can be Impeached.

  • 8 votes
#1.9 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:40 AM EST
Therese Nelson

Dear Ripley,

It is too bad Eric Holder did not follow Bush's gunrunner, Pres Bush had coordinated with the Mexican government, another country so it is International, which I believe only the Pres can ok International actions. Fast and Furious WAS NOT notified to the Mexican government. Pres Bush's program had "tracking" devices on the guns, Fast and Furious did NOT. Pres Bush stopped gunrunner, Fast and Furious went ahead without notification of Mexico government and the top of our Justice Department did not know anything about guns walking from US to another country?

So, who is lying, Eric Holder who is stating he is the Head of Dept of Justice and his second in command did not understand the magnitude of an International incident and murders with no accountability?

So, who is lying, Pres Obama must know of all International incidents...what kind of accountability do we have with Administration? Either Holder did not know which is totally inexcusable, or did know and did not share this International incident with another country to the President? They both should go as inept or liars.

  • 7 votes
#1.10 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:52 AM EST
Therese Nelson

Dear fedup,

Yes, this is something that cannot be blamed on Bush, it was accounted for with gunrunner and coordinated with the Mexican government.

The liberals want to blame Bush, Bush stopped it. Fast and Furious went ahead and this International incident was not known to Pres or Head of Dept of Justice? What?

Liars.

  • 9 votes
#1.11 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:56 AM EST
Therese Nelson

Dear Greg,

You are Right, as usual I like your reason.

  • 8 votes
#1.12 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:58 AM EST
wavesofgrain

My "state of mind" says he should have been gone months ago. He is an embarassment to our nation.

Exactly, Rob-LV Nevada!!

  • 4 votes
#1.13 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:18 AM EST
drummerboy2011

Well done on this seed Therese. I got lambasted on another seed for implying that an operation of this magnitude doesn't fly without the Attorney General of the United States having some type of knowledge of what was going on. If this were some small time gunrunning operation, sure it could have flown under the radar Holder's office, but it wasn't, this is an operation in which fully automatic weapons were sold to Mexican Drug Cartels and those very weapons have been proven to be the weapons (3 of them) used in the brutal murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

This debacle should absolutely be the end of Eric Holder as Attorney General of the United States and is a huge black eye on the character of the Obama Administration.

Charge and prosecute them, period.

  • 7 votes
#1.14 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:34 AM EST
There They Go Again

this is an operation in which fully automatic weapons were sold to Mexican Drug Cartels

Drummer,

Absolutely right except for this part. There were no fully automatic weapons involved. Legally obtaining a fully automatic weapon in this country is such a controlled process that they could never be the subject of an operation like this. The background checks done on people obtaining fully automatic weapons are almost as stringent as the check to obtain a Top Secret security clearance and, in fact, are done by the same peoplle.

  • 1 vote
#1.15 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:38 PM EST
drummerboy2011

There They Go Again,

We're not talking about American Citizens legally obtaining automatic weapons, we're talking about the ATF selling semi-automatic AND automatic weapons, including a limited amount of Kalishnakov's to Mexican Drug Cartels. Big Difference.

By the way, in certain states, there are no longer background checks done on people for the purchase of firearms:

http://firearmsfreedomact.com/

  • 4 votes
#1.16 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:52 PM EST
There They Go Again

Drummer,

The entire purpose of the operation was to track weapons that were sold legally to straw buyers who then re-sold them to those who were not legally permitted to purchase. In order for that to happen, the first purchase had to be made legally (although under suspicious circumstances since the purchases were being made by known straw buyers). The security and background checks for legally purchasing automatic weapons are such that no straw buyer could possibly survive them. Those checks are not run by the ATF but by the FBI and there has been nothing to indicate that the FBI was involved in this operation in any way. It can take two to three years to get the necessary permits for the purchase of a single automatic weapon and none of the dealers involved had the necessary special license to sell such weapons anyway. The ATF itself did not supply any weapons at all. They simply directed the dealers to sell them even though the dealers may have been suspicious of such sales (this was quite bad enough without exaggerating their role). The AK's involved were not full auto versions. They were the semiautomatic type (although they may have been altered in Mexico after they were purchased).

By the way, in certain states, there are no longer background checks done on people for the purchase of firearms:

I've seen those reports. The legislatures in those states are simply making a statement about the 10th Amendment. On a practical level, it will have no effect. Even if the laws involved make it through the courts (I really doubt that's going to happen), the weapons stipulated must be entirely made within the state and sold only to residents of that state. If even a single part of any such weapon has ever passed through interstate commerce, the law becomes invalid. Since the firearms industry is concentrated within relatively few states, I don't see many such purchases happening. Even if each state developed about 60 separate machine industries to make the parts, the Federal government will simply go to the courts and get a ruling that the steel from which the weapons were made came from another state or country. Almost all of our steelmaking industry is concentrated in a few states, most notably in Pennsylvania. That technology is so expensive that it must be done on a large scale and would never spread to a large number of states. Net practical result of the laws, therefore, is that nothing is really going to happen. Those laws are just there to make some noise.

  • 2 votes
#1.17 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:54 PM EST
drummerboy2011

I don't care what the original purpose of the operation was, it's an operation that has run amok, one that never should have been implemented in the first place given the fact of who the guns were intended to go to.

I've seen those reports

The Firearms Freedom Act isn't a report, it's a LAW in those states which have enacted it. In Montana you can walk into a pawn shop or gun store, show a valid Montana ID and walk out with what you wish, period.

If even a single part of any such weapon has ever passed through interstate commerce, the law becomes invalid.

Are you an attorney?

  • 5 votes
#1.18 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:03 PM EST
There They Go Again

The Firearms Freedom Act isn't a report, it's a LAW in those states which have enacted it. In Montana you can walk into a pawn shop or gun store, show a valid Montana ID and walk out with what you wish, period.

I meant the reports on the law. If the weapon concerned is not entirely made within the State of Montana, the dealer is likely to spend a lot of time in Leavenworth.

Are you an attorney?

Nope, formerly an American Government teacher and a police officer. That, and the ability to think logically are all that's needed on this one. The law was passed in order to get around the Interstate Commerce Clause. That means that, if any part of that weapon (right down to the grip screws) has passed through interstate commerce, the law doesn't apply. It must be totally made within the State of Montana for the law to work. Otherwise the Federal Courts will simply declare it unconstitutional. The process simply hasn't gotten to that part yet.

I don't care what the original purpose of the operation was, it's an operation that has run amok, one that never should have been implemented in the first place given the fact of who the guns were intended to go to.

Absolutely right, it should never have been implemented and those who did it should be held accountable, right up to the top. However, not knowing or caring what the original purpose was, what parameters it followed and what went wrong, while attempting to comment on it, is a mistake. Exaggerating what was done, who did it and how is also a mistake. If you do those things, no one will take your conclusions seriously. Since your conclusions are both valid and valuable, I don't want them ruined by exaggeration. They stand up quite well based on what's actually in the record.

  • 1 vote
#1.19 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:47 PM EST
Therese Nelson

Dear There they go again,

Let me be clear. This Fast and Furious is an International action, this means that it has to go through the Federal level, the top for permission.

Again, the gunrunner operation of former Pres Bush HAD cooperation with the Mexican government. The gunrunner operation HAD tracking devices on the weapons, a significantly smaller amount of weapons. This was stopped before Pres Obama took office. No Federal agent murdered.

These three aspects of gunrunner is significantly different from Fast and Furious. There was NO coordination with the other Sovereign Country, Mexico. This made this an International incident. Fast + Furious sent out 2000 guns WITH NO tracking devices and they were sold to foreign criminals and murderers with no possible way to track them? How dumb is that. Third, there was a Fed Agent Terry Brian murdered and the Fast and Furious gun was found at the scene of the crime? Why did Fast and Furious start when Bush admin stopped gunrunner?

No International incident should have ever happened without the top of the Obama Adminisration knowing of such a operation, the President Obama should know of all International operations with cost and casualty. The top of Department of Justice states he did "not know", the Secretary of State said she "did not know" until press advised her? Pres Obama did not know?

If Holder, Obama + Clinton did not know, they should have as they do not have any control over our international relations with other countries. If Holder, Obama + Clinton did know and are obstructing Justice, perjuring themselves to Congress or lying to US, they should be Impeached or Fired.

Either way, we need new leadership. These people cannot handle their jobs.

Fire them all.

  • 5 votes
#1.20 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:00 AM EST
There They Go Again

Therese,

You're preaching to the choir in this one. I completely believe everything you've stated in this post because everything you've said is sustainable from the record or logical reasoning from information that is sustainable. My previous post is a matter of tactics rather than belief. Presenting data that is not sustainable as fact, most specifically that automatic weapons were supplied and that ATF itself supplied those weapons, destroys credibility. It does not invalidate the conclusion but it does cause people not to listen or to doubt it. What I'm trying to say is, don't ruin a good case by making over the top claims or spreading the net too thin.

Again, the gunrunner operation of former Pres Bush HAD cooperation with the Mexican government. The gunrunner operation HAD tracking devices on the weapons, a significantly smaller amount of weapons. This was stopped before Pres Obama took office. No Federal agent murdered.

These three aspects of gunrunner is significantly different from Fast and Furious. There was NO coordination with the other Sovereign Country, Mexico. This made this an International incident. Fast + Furious sent out 2000 guns WITH NO tracking devices and they were sold to foreign criminals and murderers with no possible way to track them? How dumb is that. Third, there was a Fed Agent Terry Brian murdered and the Fast and Furious gun was found at the scene of the crime? Why did Fast and Furious start when Bush admin stopped gunrunner?

You've expressed this very well. The difference between the two operations clearly shows competence on the part of the Bush Justice Department and incompetence on the part of the Obama Justice Department. Particularly damning is the fact that, in the Bush operation, the State Department was notified and, through them, the Mexican Government was involved. Not involving the State Department (Mrs. Clinton says that she was not notified) is a further sign of the incompetence of Mr. Holder. It is not, however, an indictment of Mrs. Clinton. She was not in the chain of command between the Justice Dept and the President, and has no responsibility to know what the Justice Dept. is doing unless they tell her that they are conducting an international operation. That's what I meant by not spreading the net too thin. Catch the fish you can catch (Holder and possibly Obama) and don't worry about the ones outside the net. Of course, if evidence develops that she was informed, that becomes a whole different matter.

  • 3 votes
#1.21 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:11 PM EST
Therese Nelson

Dear There they go again,

Thank you for taking the time to review my comments, with thoughtful respect. I appreciate the manner in which you respond.

I do take exception to Secretary of State stating she heard this atrocity from the press release?

Rep Darrell Issa has now 75 members of Congress who have signed on to legislation to call in question the confidence of Attorney Gen Eric Holder. We have absolutely no confidence in him.

The new SOPA law is calling for the Att General to overview the Internet?

There are incidents where agents have not used due process and confiscated blogs/internet. The property was not returned and there had been notice to the blog's attorney, they did not use process and withheld the notice of supposed extensions of this hearing. The attorney had researched and this case was no where to be found? After an entire year the blogs material and domain had been returned with no case or charges?

This is egregious, Eric Holder demonstrates he cannot do the job he has now. ughhh

  • 3 votes
#1.22 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:51 PM EST
DS12

Therese another viner just posted this story from TPM:

from the article:

Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer has said he regretted not making the connection between the gun walking tactics used during the Bush administration when the allegations about Fast and Furious first came to his attention in early 2011.

    #1.23 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:14 PM EST
    Reply
    adventurous1

    "...is this FuriousGate?"

    nop, just another witch hunt.

    • 14 votes
    #2 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:17 PM EST
    Larry H-189743

    #2, what an ignorant comment.

    • 16 votes
    #2.1 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:24 PM EST
    Steve-2081387

    Obama will throw Holder under the bus to save his own skin, after all the people he has thrown under the bus, he's going to need to get a bigger bus.

    • 17 votes
    #2.2 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:27 PM EST
    greg81082-4115372

    Oh boy..WhitewaterII. Impeach, deflect and waste tax payers' money.IOKIYAR

    • 11 votes
    #2.3 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:44 PM EST
    Olyman

    His actions direct or not, contributed to the death of border agent. More deaths will inevitably follow. Those who think this is a witch hunt evidently think Obama and Holder are above the law. Even a cop who made a clean shoot would at least be placed on administrative leave pending the investigation. Nothing of the sort for Holder. The confidence Obama has in Holder, IMO, is that Holder will drag this out, take the eyes off of Obama and eventually end with someone jumping on the sword. Of course the patsy will later be rewarded with another high profile position of power in the administration or as a lobbyist somewhere.

    • 15 votes
    #2.4 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:18 PM EST
    DS12

    IMO, is that Holder will drag this out, take the eyes off of Obama and eventually end with someone jumping on the sword

    Olyman you are probably right....shades of Oliver North....I wonder if Holder can get a TV show and can he avoid prison as well.

    • 4 votes
    #2.5 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:44 PM EST
    adventurous1

    #2, what an ignorant comment.

    Nop, just an opinion based on evidence presented so far and the actions of Rep. Issa.

    • In 2010 Issa promised an expansion of the oversight committee to include 100's of investigations against the Obama administration. In other words a witchhunt.
    • Issa has made a lot of accusations based on speculations and hearsay. He suggested that the FBI tampered with evidence, without any proof.
    • He has accused Attorney General Holder is an accessory to murder without any proof.
    • He has refused to acknowledge the connection between this program and the program under the Bush administration.
    • He is constantly speaking out very publicly about his speculations in order to encourage more media coverage. If this was a serious investigation Issa wouldn't be using the media to influence/contaminate the direction of the investigation.
    • And also Issa has had a pattern of instigating other witch hunts since his promise in 2010 which have failed. So far, this is the only one that has stuck.

    These and many other actions by Issa leads me to believe that this is just witch hunt.

    Those who think this is a witch hunt evidently think Obama and Holder are above the law. Even a cop who made a clean shoot would at least be placed on administrative leave pending the investigation.

    If there is evidence that the Obama administration or the AG had anything to do with it, then yes they should face the consequences. But so far the evidence has been very light and circumstantial, yet everyone is already sharpening their pitchforks.

    • 10 votes
    #2.6 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 4:54 PM EST
    Billy-BadassDeleted
    adventurous1

    Smart enough to offer my own opinion without throwing insults against other newsviners. If you know something that I don't just go ahead and say it. I'm very open to listening. Simply calling me dense and living it at that doesn't add any value to the discussion.

    • 8 votes
    #2.8 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:15 PM EST
    fedupwithliberals

    These and many other actions by Issa leads me to believe that this is just witch hunt.

    Tell that to the families of the two dead Border Patrol Agents.

    • 12 votes
    #2.9 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:27 PM EST
    adventurous1

    I gladly would. I don't think it is fair to those families that their tragedies are used for political gain. This case deserves a thorough and fair investigation. Not an investigation with political showmanship and Issa constantly fueling outrage by making insinuations absent facts or showboating with all the subpoenas he hands out.

    • 6 votes
    #2.10 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:57 PM EST
    nospin1

    It is Holder and Obama that are using this for political reasons not Issa.

    • 7 votes
    #2.11 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 7:21 PM EST
    adventurous1

    And how do you figure that nospin?

    • 4 votes
    #2.12 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:15 PM EST
    There They Go Again

    Oh boy..WhitewaterII. Impeach, deflect and waste tax payers' money.

    Oh boy..Watergate II, Impeach, deflect and waste the taxpayers money. Lesson that should have been learned in the 1970's but apparently wasn't. Don't try the nasty stuff unless you want the same thing coming back at you later. Some of us have very long memories; we never forget and never forgive.

    • 3 votes
    #2.13 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:26 PM EST
    nospin1

    adventurous1 - If Obama believes Holder is not responsible for this he is not doing his job. If Obama believes Holder is responsible and waits until just before the 2012 election it is politics at its worst.

    • 6 votes
    #2.14 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:55 PM EST
    adventurous1

    You are basing that on your belief that Holder is guilty of something. Yet you have no evidence he is guilty of anything. What if Obama believes Holder is not responsible and it turns out that Holder isn't responsible. Is Obama still not doing his job?

    • 1 vote
    #2.15 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:33 PM EST
    drummerboy2011

    Scroll down and read page 3 of the following:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pdf_40_43.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

    • 3 votes
    #2.16 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:29 PM EST
    Therese Nelson

    Dear adventurous1,

    My comment +#19.20.

    Let me be clear. This Fast and Furious is an International action, this means that it has to go through the Federal level, the top for permission.

    Again, the gunrunner operation of former Pres Bush HAD cooperation with the Mexican government. The gunrunner operation HAD tracking devices on the weapons, a significantly smaller amount of weapons. This was stopped before Pres Obama took office. No Federal agent murdered.

    These three aspects of gunrunner is significantly different from Fast and Furious. There was NO coordination with the other Sovereign Country, Mexico. This made this an International incident. Fast + Furious sent out 2000 guns WITH NO tracking devices and they were sold to foreign criminals and murderers with no possible way to track them? How dumb is that. Third, there was a Fed Agent Terry Brian murdered and the Fast and Furious gun was found at the scene of the crime? Why did Fast and Furious start when Bush admin stopped gunrunner?

    No International incident should have ever happened without the top of the Obama Adminisration knowing of such a operation, the President Obama should know of all International operations with cost and casualty. The top of Department of Justice states he did "not know", the Secretary of State said she "did not know" until press advised her? Pres Obama did not know?

    If Holder, Obama + Clinton did not know, they should have as they do not have any control over our international relations with other countries. If Holder, Obama + Clinton did know and are obstructing Justice, perjuring themselves to Congress or lying to US, they should be Impeached or Fired.

    Either way, we need new leadership. These people cannot handle their jobs.

    Fire them all.

    This international incident is too big, these people are inept or lying. Either way they should GO.

    • 5 votes
    #2.17 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:10 AM EST
    FlNutmegger

    Simple question: Why is it not an "International Incident" when there is clear evidence that the Highest levels of the Mexican government is actively funnelling ILLEGAL ALIENS through their country into the United States including forays across the border by the Mexican Army?

    • 1 vote
    #2.18 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:14 PM EST
    Rob-LVNevada

    Because evidently Calderon has a double standard. What you describe are both rightly international incidents. In my book - we should be treating any incursion across our Southern border the same way Mexico treats incursions across its Southern border.

    • 4 votes
    #2.19 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:26 PM EST
    adventurous1

    No International incident should have ever happened without the top of the Obama Adminisration knowing of such a operation, the President Obama should know of all International operations with cost and casualty. The top of Department of Justice states he did "not know", the Secretary of State said she "did not know" until press advised her? Pres Obama did not know?

    If Holder, Obama + Clinton did not know, they should have as they do not have any control over our international relations with other countries. If Holder, Obama + Clinton did know and are obstructing Justice, perjuring themselves to Congress or lying to US, they should be Impeached or Fired.

    I agree with everything you said here, although I would argue that one bad incident doesn't mean that they have no control over our international relations with other countries. That is a stretch considering how well Clinton, Biden and Obama are dealing with foreign policy. What you said after made no sense to me.

    Either way, we need new leadership. These people cannot handle their jobs.

    Fire them all.

    You started off with reasonable statements then switched back to witch hunt mode.

      #2.20 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:47 PM EST
      Therese Nelson

      Dear adventurous1,

      There is a dead Federal Agent, Brian Terry. This is a significant difference.

      There is a question, why did Fast + Furious go through without the precautions of Bush, (coordinating with Mexico, tracking of guns) AND when it was stopped?

      • 4 votes
      #2.21 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:57 PM EST
      Reply
      Ggap

      — A second Bush administration gun-trafficking investigation has surfaced using the same controversial tactic for which congressional Republicans have been criticizing the Obama administration

      nop, just another witch hunt.

      Absolutely, and it's the wrong Witch!

      • 8 votes
      Reply#3 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:58 PM EST
      FlNutmegger

      What he did, IMO, was set up the Cartels to do exactly what they are doing right now and that is wage guerrilla warfare against the United States in the southwest and our apologist President is allowing it instead of doing his Constitutional duties which he swore on the Bible to carry out and that was protect the sovereignty of this nation against all enemies from without and within for they have accomplices right here. This is also IMO treason by all parties involved and calls for impeachment, removal from office, and imprisonment! The thing here is are his corporate sponsors willing to shell out the millions that they are going to have to in order to protect their gravy train

      • 6 votes
      #3.1 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:17 PM EST
      Reply
      tomwcraig

      This is quite ironic, we have evidence of at least gross incompetence in the White House, State Department, Justice Department, and a whole bunch of dependent agencies at least; outright criminal behavior at the most. And, most of the people posting from comment #2 to #2.3 don't seem to care. Instead, they are trying to equate it to Whitewater and a political witchhunt. The truth is that this operation could have caused WAR to break out along the Mexican border. It violated the much vaunted, by Liberals, INTERNATIONAL LAW. Yet, it's okay for THIS DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION to violate INTERNATIONAL LAW. But by god, if we suffered attacks by Islamic Terrorists and retaliate, we must try a Republican President for War Crimes even when none were committed in either war started under him. Yet, when THIS DEMOCRATIC President ASSASSINATES American citizens using Predator drones (al-Awalki and Khan in Yemen), involves us in a TRULY ILLEGAL war (Libya), and violates the border of TWO sovereign nations (Mexico and Pakistan) with OPERATIONS (Fast & Furious and Neptune Spear); it is "Oh, well, those are the breaks. Let's re-elect him!" How sickening.

      • 17 votes
      Reply#4 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:10 PM EST
      Ggap

      Let's re-elect him!" How sickening.

      It'll be even more sickening if he's not re-elected; your so-called " American Citizen," by his own actions, denounced his "American Citizenship" and was religiously involved in the task of assassinating American citizens. That drone showed more rationale then some of us.

      • 5 votes
      #4.1 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:40 PM EST
      my-pockets-r-mt

      But yet this administration wants to call the fort hood shootings "workplace violence". That american citizen also was religiously involved in the task of assassinating american citizens. Send in the drones to take this guy out too.

      • 9 votes
      #4.2 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 4:11 PM EST
      adventurous1

      And, most of the people posting from comment #2..don't seem to care

      Those heartless bastards!! Hey wait a minute, thats me!!! :)

      This is quite ironic, we have evidence of at least gross incompetence in the White House, State Department, Justice Department, and a whole bunch of dependent agencies at least; outright criminal behavior at the most.

      That is where we disagree. We don't have any evidence of any of that. We don't even know who approved the operation in the first place. Shouldn't we find that information out first before we jump 10 steps ahead and start demanding the AG resigns. But that question isn't even being asked because the entire investigation has been derailed to focus on what the AG didn't know!

      The truth is that this operation could have caused WAR to break out along the Mexican border.

      Well since Mexico didn't threaten to go to war with us and we have bigger guns than they do, I find that very far fetched.

      It violated the much vaunted, by Liberals, INTERNATIONAL LAW.

      Not if the Mexican government gave permission to carry out the operation, which they did.

      we must try a Republican President for War Crimes

      Only if he does commit a war crime. Like say, torture.

      Yet, when THIS DEMOCRATIC President ASSASSINATES American citizens using Predator drones (al-Awalki and Khan in Yemen)

      Democrats are also worried about this move by Obama. Though it is quite surprising to read a conservative actually displaying compassion for 2 terrorists.

      involves us in a TRULY ILLEGAL war (Libya)

      That's a bit of a stretch Obama was operating in a gray area. I kinda see both side of the argument on this one.

      and violates the border of TWO sovereign nations (Mexico and Pakistan)

      It wasn't a violation of the Mexican border and as for Pakistan, are you actually advocating that we should have just let Osama bin Laden alone for fear of angering the Pakistanis that were harboring him?

      • 5 votes
      #4.3 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 9:23 PM EST
      tomwcraig

      According to what I've heard on the news, Hillary Clinton, Eric Holder, and President Obama ALL didn't know about the operation from what they said to the press and to Congress. That means either someone failed to inform higher ups what was going on, which is gross incompetence; or it is downright criminal behavior. Also, from what I heard, the Mexican government didn't know anything about Fast & Furious. They did know about the operation under Bush, though.

      Bush didn't commit torture, where is the proof he went into any cell anywhere and tortured someone? Oh, wait, he approved waterboarding, which is just a different form of Chinese water torture; but no one screams about the Chinese water torture do they?

      A gray area? He failed to notify Congress about involvement in Libya until the 90 days were almost up for getting Congressional approval! He was supposed to notify Congress 60 days before putting our servicemen and women in harms way. Airstrikes using our aircraft put our servicemen and women in danger. Therefore, he violated the War Powers Act and started an illegal war with Libya. For that he should be impeached; but that won't happen due to the Democratic controlled Senate.

      Okay, Mexico didn't know about Operation Fast & Furious until AFTER guns were used in crimes in Mexico and it wasn't a violation of the border? And, the Pakistanis, who are our allies WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS AT HAND, and you don't care if we anger them or not? Frankly, we needed to reach an agreement with them about bin Laden, not go in with guns blazing. Hell, we've done that twice in the past year! First with bin Laden, then with the airstrike that killed 20 Pakistani soldiers at a checkpoint! I'm sorry, but that is poor diplomacy and the quickest way to start a nuclear war.

      • 5 votes
      #4.4 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 9:58 PM EST
      adventurous1

      According to what I've heard on the news, Hillary Clinton, Eric Holder, and President Obama ALL didn't know about the operation from what they said to the press and to Congress. That means either someone failed to inform higher ups what was going on, which is gross incompetence; or it is downright criminal behavior.

      Agreed, mostly. Therefore shouldn't the first order of business be to find out who authorized it, who was in charge of it and why didn't they inform the higher ups?

      ...the Mexican government didn't know anything about Fast & Furious.

      We seem to have conflicting information there. I don't know who is right. But I do remember hearing Holder saying the the Mexican government approved the operation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

      Bush didn't commit torture, where is the proof he went into any cell anywhere and tortured someone?

      There is plenty of proof that he approved the use of torture. Which is why he can't travel to certain countries for fear of being arrested for said crimes.

      Chinese water torture; but no one screams about the Chinese water torture do they?

      That's because they are Chinese. They are communists. They are the bad guys. We are the good guys. We don't do what the bad guys do, because that would make us look bad.

      A gray area? He failed to notify Congress about involvement in Libya until the 90 days were almost up for getting Congressional approval!

      I don't think that's correct but I could be wrong. Congress was notified about it, it wasn't a big secret he just failed to seek congressional approval past the 90 days. What I think is the gray area is his argument that since no boots were on the ground past the 90days then he didn't need congressional approval. It is a bit of a stretch since US assets were used for joint military operations past the 90 days, but I can kinda see his point, which is why I'm on the fence.

      Airstrikes using our aircraft put our servicemen and women in danger.

      Soldiers being put in harms way, is part of their job description. Also number of US soldiers hurt or killed in Libya: 0

      For that he should be impeached; but that won't happen due to the Democratic controlled Senate.

      I didn't hear any Republicans complain.

      Okay, Mexico didn't know about Operation Fast & Furious until AFTER guns were used in crimes in Mexico and it wasn't a violation of the border?

      You say after, I say before. If it is after than I would agree with you, that could be in violation of gun trafficking law.

      And, the Pakistanis, who are our allies WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS AT HAND, and you don't care if we anger them or not?

      They are more like frenemies than allies. There nuclear missiles can't reach the US from what I understand and if we did get into a hypothetical nuclear war with them, we would blow them up 100 times over.

      Frankly, we needed to reach an agreement with them about bin Laden, not go in with guns blazing.

      There is plenty of evidence that the Pakistanis were harboring bin Laden. Especially considering the fact that he was in the same neighborhood as Pakistani military officials. So it would be very dumb to show our hand that we knew where bin Laden was hiding when we suspect that they know where he is as well and are protecting him.

      Hell, we've done that twice in the past year! First with bin Laden, then with the airstrike that killed 20 Pakistani soldiers at a checkpoint! I'm sorry, but that is poor diplomacy and the quickest way to start a nuclear war.

      Actually we've sent a lot more drones across the border "guns blazing" in the past few years. Again I don't see how that could lead to a nuclear war. This is not an insult, just an observation, but you need to brush up on your foreign policy knowledge.

      Also we are branching out into other topics, we should stick to the fast and furious case

      • 4 votes
      #4.5 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 11:19 PM EST
      tomwcraig

      I agree with most of your points here. But, with a nation as unstable as Pakistan is at the moment, we have to tread carefully. That seems to have been missed by Obama, as you said, he has ordered more and more drones to enter Pakistan on strikes.

      Mexico knew of the Bush operation and agreed to it; but didn't know about Fast & Furious and wasn't even consulted.

      Republicans did complain about Libya, since they weren't notified until after airstrikes had already been ordered. Not sure exactly when this notification occurred whether before an actual airstrike or after, though. However, they approved it for the most part; because they wanted Qadaffi out and wanted to support the French and the British. I, frankly, still think it was something we shouldn't have done. Obama got lucky, because if 1 plane had been shot down, he would have had a firestorm similar to what happened to Clinton after the basis for "Behind Enemy Lines" occurred in Bosnia/Kosovo.

      • 6 votes
      #4.6 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:13 PM EST
      Therese Nelson

      Dear Tom,

      Yes, you are correct we had the cooperation of the Mexican government when Pres Bush allowed TRACKED guns in gunrunner.

      Fast and Furious has multiple emails from the second in command of the Department of Justice sending the information to his OWN personal email account and stating he did not know nor did he tell the head of the Department of Justice? This is guns sent to another country with no authority but the guys in the State level? Who are you trying to lie to..US?

      We the people just are not that stupid.

      • 4 votes
      #4.7 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:16 AM EST
      Reply
      Bootstraps

      How can the A.G. not know who started an operation that resulted in the sale of 2,500 weapons to straw purchasers—some of which were paid for with U.S. taxpayer money, the passing of those weapons to criminals, the smuggling of those weapons across the border, the death of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry with at least two of those weapons, and the death of hundreds of Mexican citizens? (I bet Holder could tell you who authorized the raid on the Gibson Guitar factory with no problem.)

      by AWR Hawkins

      Link

      • 7 votes
      Reply#5 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:35 PM EST
      TheyreAllCrooks

      How can the A.G. not know who started an operation that resulted in the sale of 2,500 weapons to straw purchasers....

      The same way Reagan said he did not know about an illegal operation being run in the White House basement. You know the one where we were funding the Contras from profits made off illegal arms sales to Iran...see Holder had a very good teacher in Ronnie RayGun!

      • 7 votes
      #5.1 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:01 PM EST
      Billy-BadassDeleted
      oldtincan

      All I can say is that after watching Eric Holder for the last 3 plus years I really don't think he knows what he is doing. I think he laments in being in the spotlight. I also think he thinks he is smarter than he actually is. He's gotten into the CIA's business way too much and has had to back off when he realized he was screwing up big time. I think he suffers from dillusions of grandeur. When he hasn't been in the spotlight for awhile he seems to get involved in something he knows nothing about and when he realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew he has a very sneaky way of finding a reason to not to go after what he was determined to go after at all costs. He and Obama seem to be alot alike. The sad part of all of this is I really liked the both of them 3 years ago. I still like them but I think the two of them need to find another job! The sooner the better!

      • 5 votes
      #5.3 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:24 AM EST
      Reply
      Billy-BadassDeleted
      Robert in Ohio

      Therese

      As much as it seems sincere when AG Holder says "I don't know anything" it is unlikely that an operation of this type and scope involving a foreign country would have been underway without the knowledge and approval of the AG and in all likelihood at least informational briefing to the White House.

      It is starting to look like Pres Obama will need to remove Holder form the administration assuming thet the AG is willing to take one for the skipper.

      They could have learned from Nixon - it wasn't the break in that scuttled the Nixon presidency but rather the attempted cover up.

      Good article, voted up

      • 10 votes
      #7 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 4:56 PM EST
      adventurous1

      it is unlikely that an operation of this type and scope involving a foreign country would have been underway without the knowledge and approval of the AG and in all likelihood at least informational briefing to the White House.

      I disagree. I think its very likely that they would miss it. There are very many operations happening along the border. And this is Mexico not Pakistan, the risk of causing an international incident is much smaller because we have been dancing around the border for decades now working with Mexico sometimes maybe behind their back. It would be easy for the White House to ignore whats happening on the border when they are very focused on much bigger threats like Iran, N. Korea, Pakistan etc. Compared to whats happening in those areas I'm not surprised that they didn't have first hand information about this. Though that's not to say they shouldn't have.

      It is starting to look like Pres Obama will need to remove Holder form the administration assuming thet the AG is willing to take one for the skipper.

      They could have learned from Nixon - it wasn't the break in that scuttled the Nixon presidency but rather the attempted cover up.

      I think the comparison between this case and Nixon is a false comparison, there was a mountain of evidence against Nixon and evidence of a cover up. There is very little proof that the AG is guilty of any wrong doing and there is little evidence that the administration is trying to cover up anything.

      • 4 votes
      #7.1 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:50 PM EST
      Robert in Ohio

      adnetourous

      Thanks for the detailed and cogent feedback

      I will borrow a line from your post as my response

      "I disagree", but time will tell which of us is correct. The difference in our views is that I believe that the AG (and possibly) the White House knew and approved of the operation and are now attempting to cover that up and distance themselves from the operation which resulted in many deaths.

      Thanks again for the feedback

      • 7 votes
      #7.2 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:07 AM EST
      drummerboy2011

      I disagree that Holder's office would be out of the loop on an operation of this magnatude. I simply don't believe there is any way this one would have been flown under the radar of the Office of the Attorney general of the United States given not only the enormity of the operation, but who the principles are as well. Again as I stated in my previous post, we're not talking about some small time gunrunning thing here, F&F was an enormous operation with fully automatic weapons going directly to Mexican Drug Cartels.

      • 10 votes
      #7.3 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:15 AM EST
      Robert in Ohio

      drummerboy

      I agree 100%

      Thanks for weighing in

      • 6 votes
      #7.4 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:59 AM EST
      drummerboy2011

      Thanks Robert in Ohio. Seriously, there are those making the argument that these types of clandestine operations happen all the time without the knowledge of the AG, however, this operation is/was way beyond your normal everyday gunrunning operation and ultimately had a direct impact in the murder of Brian Terry in so much that 3 of the very weapons sold during the course of this operation were found at the scene of Terry's murder.

      No, Holder had knowledge of this operation, make no mistake.

      • 7 votes
      #7.5 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:10 PM EST
      adventurous1

      there are those making the argument that these types of clandestine operations happen all the time without the knowledge of the AG

      I don't know if you are referring to me. I don't believe that these operations happen all the time without the knowledge of the AG. I do know that there were other similar operations before this one. I think it is entirely possible that this operation could have happened under his nose. It doesn't seem that there were a lot of personnel involved and there is very little paper work about the operation.

      But here is the problem that I have with the investigation. You guys believe that the AG was involved in the operation. You don't know. There is little evidence thus far that he knew anything about the operation. It would make a lot more sense to first question the people who did know about the operation, found out who gave them their marching orders. Work your way up the ladder until you find a guy who says "yes I told the AG about the operation and he gave me the go ahead."

      But we don't have any of that. The first reaction by Issa when this news broke out was to go after the AG. A full investigation hasn't even occurred yet but people are already pointing a finger at the AG without any evidence. And guess what happens after that. The AG is forced to resign because of building pressure from Republicans. The story dies down. The investigation stops once Issa is done with his publicity stunt. And the family will never know who really was involved or what part the AG played, if any. That's why a call this a witch hunt.

      • 1 vote
      #7.6 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:46 PM EST
      Robert in Ohio

      adventurous

      Perhaps you are correct and the investigation should yield the info that you say is the key

      I have said about all I have to say about this situation, but this

      If AG Holder knew about this operation and has lied about it, he should be fired for lying to Congress; if this operation took place without his knowledge and approval he should be fired for incompetence.

      • 5 votes
      #7.7 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:10 PM EST
      adventurous1

      I agree with the first part. But I don't agree we should fire him because he didn't know. Calling him incompetent is just a right wing attack politicizing the issue. Not knowing something doesn't mean he was incompetent. It could mean that someone withheld information from him. He would be incompetent if his entire office new about it and gave him paperwork about it but he didn't know. Or if had reason to believe that such an operation was going on but didn't do due diligence to find out. But so far it seems that very few people new about it, so I think its unfair to start attacking him as incompetent.

      All I'm saying is that a real investigation should be carried out without Republicans sensationalizing the scandal.

      • 1 vote
      #7.8 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:21 PM EST
      There They Go Again

      But I don't agree we should fire him because he didn't know.

      It's his JOB to know what's going on in his department. If he doesn't know, he's not doing his job correctly and should be fired. That's the standard any supervisor is held to on any job. Why should he catch a break?

      • 5 votes
      #7.9 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:53 PM EST
      tomwcraig

      adventurous1,

      With the way he is acting, he should be fired for attempting to cover it up. So far, everyone that supposedly been involved with this operation, except a DA, still have their jobs, albeit most were reassigned. Their heads should have rolled for this.

      • 5 votes
      #7.10 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:05 PM EST
      Robert in Ohio

      adventurous

      An operation on this scale involving activities involving drug cartels, guns and a foreign country--- if that should not be known to the AG then we do not need an AG

      • 7 votes
      #7.11 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:05 PM EST
      adventurous1

      Wow if stirred up a hornet nest.

      It's his JOB to know what's going on in his department.

      But if members of his department neglect to tell him, or intentionally keeps information from him, I don't think that should be put on him.

      With the way he is acting, he should be fired for attempting to cover it up.

      Again that's just sensationalized news by Republicans. He has ordered an investigation, handed over requested documents and showed up for testimonies and answered questions. How is that a cover up?

      An operation on this scale involving activities involving drug cartels, guns and a foreign country--- if that should not be known to the AG...

      I never claimed the AG shouldn't have know about it. I just said that it is possible that he didn't know about it. With the very many operations flying around it is very possible to perform an operation without the AG knowing.

      So far it seems the only person to know about this in the AG office was the Assistant AG, who knew about it before hand, lied about it and didn't inform the AG. I'd say he should resign. If it turns out that the AG did know about it, than yah he should resign as well. So far the only thing I would say the AG is guilty of is not running a tighter ship. And I personally don't think that's enough to ask for his resignation. Considering that he didn't do anything different than what previous AG's have done.

      • 1 vote
      #7.12 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:29 PM EST
      FlNutmegger

      running a tighter ship

      Just gotta tell you that from where I sit, which doesn't mean much, in the general scheme of things, our entire ship of state is leaking like a sieve and nobody seems to want to keep it afloat. We are being run by a whole crew of incompetents who seem to know only one thing and that is blame the other guy.

      • 3 votes
      #7.13 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:45 PM EST
      There They Go Again

      But if members of his department neglect to tell him, or intentionally keeps information from him, I don't think that should be put on him.

      Then, the instant he found out about it, those people should have been fired and a public investigation aimed at criminal activity should have started. The fact that records were sealed and the people involved were transferred rather than fired is, in itself, an indication of an attempted cover up.

      He has ordered an investigation, handed over requested documents and showed up for testimonies and answered questions.

      He only did those things after the House of Representatives started an investigation of their own into the matter. Before that, it was cover up time.

      Considering that he didn't do anything different than what previous AG's have done.

      And I should be able to drive down a city street at 90 mph because other people have done it? Actually, the previous AG did run a tighter ship. That's why the Bush operation was run in a much more professional manner and was shut down before any damage was done.

      • 2 votes
      #7.14 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:52 PM EST
      adventurous1

      Then, the instant he found out about it, those people should have been fired and a public investigation aimed at criminal activity should have started.

      Agreed, or at the least suspended until a full investigation was carried out

      He only did those things after the House of Representatives started an investigation of their own into the matter...

      He did them after because that's when this things were requested. He didn't no anything about this before because he didn't know anything about it.

      ...Before that, it was cover up time.

      No document was shredded, no smoke coming out of chimneys in the AG office, no disappearing witnesses, no cover up.

      And I should be able to drive down a city street at 90 mph because other people have done it? Actually, the previous AG did run a tighter ship. That's why the Bush operation was run in a much more professional manner and was shut down before any damage was done.

      Bad analogy, driving 90mph is illegal. Running a gun trafficking sting operation is not. What I meant by my previous statement was that he didn't restructure policy in the AG office in a way that caused this communication breakdown. From what I can tell his office ran like any other AG office so I don't see why he is to blame when his subordinates didn't give him this very important info.

      • 1 vote
      #7.15 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:50 PM EST
      Therese Nelson

      Dear adventurous,

      Your assertion that maybe AG just did not know is really a non point, THEY should have know.

      Either way, if they did not know then there is no pass, an operation of this scope has cost lives of people on either side of the border AND of a Federal Agent means if they did not know, they should have know.

      You may feel that their "I did not know" will make this have no accountability and I say you must be naive or not informed, the buck stops with Holder and Obama for the death of Agent Terry and the others who will be killed by the weapons they let walk without any possible way of tracking. They did not even get permission from Mexico.

      Pres Obama + Eric Holder are ultimately responsible for this international incident. Like my friend at work used to say "that is why they make the big bucks"

      • 6 votes
      #7.16 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:24 AM EST
      adventurous1

      I already said earlier that the AG should have known. But I also don't think that's a big enough offense to ask for the AG's resignation. I feel that you should look at why they didn't know. Were they warned and simply ignored the warning? That to me would be a much more serious offence than if they didn't know because information was kept away from them.

      Yes as the people in charge of the oversight of the ATF the AG office should share some of the blame for not doing a good enough job overseeing operations. But since they didn't even know about it proves an important fact. That they had nothing to do with the operation! They were not part of the inception, planning, approval, oversight or execution of this operation. Yet everyone is blaming them, and only them, for something they had no hand in doing.

      That is why this feels like a witch hunt to me because the people who were actually in charge of the operation and approved it are completely unknown and ignored. Instead the President and AG is being blamed for it without any solid evidence that they even knew about it, let alone played any part in it.

        #7.17 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:36 PM EST
        Therese Nelson

        adventurous1,

        What, you are stating that an International incident where a Federal Agent was murdered with guns that were sold to Mexican criminals should be ignored because those who have the singular power or authority to pull off an operation with another country said they "did not know"? What?

        For one, there is evidence that the second in command was emailed AND moved the email to his personal email while commenting on it.

        If Eric Holder's staff do not know how to handle an international operation, I blame Eric Holder as he is there boss.

        I blame the staff for not telling Eric Holder of an international incident when they should have.

        I blame Eric Holder and feel he should be charged with obstruction/perjury, and Rep Darrel Issa said there is deliberate evidence Holder and the White House is deliberately withholding requested emails and material.

        Eric Holder arrogantly smirked at Issa + Congress, he flopped back in his chair during proceedings. I do not feel this man knows his job, is responsible in his, and I think he is not good for the office he holds. I think Holder and Obama may think they are too big to fail?

        Blago thought so too.

        Corzine thinks so too.

        Blago + Corzine are both Pres Obama's friends...hmmm

        • 2 votes
        #7.18 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:15 PM EST
        Reply
        silverhawk63

        Last count has 350-400 Mexican nationals and 2 federal agents murderedwith guns from F/F. Want to ask you liberals a question where do the orphans and family members go for justice? Everyone claims they did not know.Obama,Holder,Clinton. I think the house should start impeachment proceedings against Obama to force a full release of all F/F documents. Someone must resign Obama or Eric Holder because both have blood on their hands.

        • 10 votes
        Reply#8 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:09 PM EST
        adventurous1

        So because Obama, Holder and Clinton all claim that they don't know anything about it. And since this is apparently all liberals faults. We should proceed to impeach Obama.

        As I said earlier, a witch hunt.

        • 6 votes
        #8.1 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:24 PM EST
        silverhawk63

        No adventurous its about justice and doing the right thing but your right if it was a republican administration Pelosi we demand everyone resign.I want the top person responsible to resign,be happy Mexico is not demanding extradition to their court system for justice.

        • 6 votes
        #8.2 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 7:13 PM EST
        adventurous1

        if it was a republican administration Pelosi we demand everyone resign.

        I have no idea what that means. Republican administration Pelosi?

        I'm ok with the people responsible resigning. So long as their is evidence that they are responsible. You argued that Obama should be impeached because he didn't know anything about it. If we keep impeaching people based on what they don't know we would never get anything done.

        • 4 votes
        #8.3 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:21 PM EST
        Reply
        greg m-1174186

        Lawyer. ie Professional at not telling the truth.

        Politicians. ie semi pro at not telling the truth but no one cares.

        • 6 votes
        Reply#9 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:52 PM EST
        Charlie Courtois

        Not bad, Greg!

        • 5 votes
        #9.1 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 7:45 PM EST
        Reply
        Conk

        It seems that the Federales acted rather stupidly in this "Fast and Furious" business. That's unfortunate, but the fact is that stupidity is not necessarily illegal even in those who hold high office.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#10 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 10:26 PM EST
        tt16

        The republicans are trying to get a scandal going to hurt the democrats in the election. Doesn't seem to be working. The bigger scandal will be for the republican party when Holder begins to sue the states with the new Racist voting laws.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#11 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 10:49 PM EST
        DogBoyTheCat

        Ok... let me see if I got this straight....

        The G W Bush administration tried to track weapons going into Mexico with various tracking devices, registrations & ballistics tests to track them, and that failed miserably. So they stopped.

        Now, the ATF, under the current administration, does the same thing, with an entire order of magnitude more weapons and much less restrictions.

        Then...BIG SURPRISE... it goes bad.

        So far, am I right?

        Now, as far as I understand, authorization for the former program went as far as the president, whom I haven't heard has denied this. However, somehow, the latter, much larger program is denied by all the high-ranking members of the current administration.

        Rumors (backed by internal e-mails) suggest that the entire operation was to be used to pass a new anti-gun agenda. Am I correct in understanding that they wished to circumvent the constitution?

        Just a side note: In Switzerland, the head of every household, if he/she is not a convicted felon or certified insane, is required by law to keep & maintain a fully automatic assault weapon and at least 100 rounds of ammunition.

        From what I see, this isn't just party politics happening.

        This is a scheme to "fundamentally change America"

        What, exactly, do they intend to change America into?

        • 3 votes
        Reply#12 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:13 AM EST
        tt16

        The thing that should be made clear is that the ATF, for tracking purposes, placed guns in the illegal gun trafficking system as a way to get information on how the system was set up. Here's the important part. If it hadn't been ATF guns that surfaced at the crime scenes, it would have been other guns. All the crimes would have been committed regardless. The ATF Operation nor the origination of the guns had anything whatsoever to do with the crimes. The people using the guns did not even know about the ATF Operation. Similar operations had been used in the past going back to 2006 during the Bush administration. This was a law enforcement investigative operation and similar types of operations are used by ALL US law enforcement agencies including the CIA in foreign countries. Sometimes the outcomes are good, sometimes not. Law enforcement is a dangerous business.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#13 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:57 AM EST
        tt16

        Since these types of operations happen continuously and are commonly used by the FBI, ATF, DEA, CIA, Local and others, there is no reason to suspect or think that any high level Government official would have Exact up to date knowledge of the operation.

        The republicans are desperate and are really grasping. Don't be duped.

        • 1 vote
        #13.1 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:19 AM EST
        Therese Nelson

        tt16,

        Soooo, based on your reasoning, since the drug cartels are going to kill Fed Agents and civilians, why is it important that these high powered guns are given to them? What?

        Let us summarize, the US has outpowered our enemies and criminals to kill our security agents and police? That is ok?

        • 4 votes
        #13.2 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:27 AM EST
        Reply
        Conk

        Facilitating the transfer of several thousand traced firearms into the drug trade, as seems to have been done, seems on the surface to have been ineffective. Obama and Holder don't know anything about Fast and Furious? If it had worked, I suspect they would have known all about it from the first and would have been standing upfront center to take full credit. That's the way things like this tend to work.

        It might have been foreseen that Fast and Furious might not be effective, but what I am really uncomfortable with is the notion that Holder didn't really know much about Fast and Furious. If he did not, he should have because of the number of firearms involved.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#14 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:39 PM EST
        chitownty

        Sounds like a bunch of fast and furious Republican BS.End the drug war,it isn't now nor has it ever worked.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#15 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 PM EST
        drummerboy2011

        Sounds like a bunch of fast and furious Republican BS.

        Tell that to the family of Brian Terry.

        • 6 votes
        Reply#16 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:05 PM EST
        chitownty

        The fact that this officer was killed,while tragic,doesn't deter from the fact that this is nothing more than a Republican witch hunt,designed to score political points.Law enforcement operations such as this often go wrong and unfortunately people get killed,many times the victims are innocent civilians.(look up Jose GUERENA and Kathryn JOHNSTON,a 92 year old)I don't see the right screaming for heads every time that happens.

        • 2 votes
        #16.1 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:00 PM EST
        tomwcraig

        chitownty,

        Except this operation was either completely rogue or was done with full approval without every i being dotted and every t crossed. Right now, we all have to admit there is a cover-up here; because only 1 person associated with Fast & Furious lost their job and that was a DA that resigned. No one involved with this operation has been fired, and they almost all should be. At the very least, Holder needs to resign for trying to cover this up until it blew up in his face.

        • 7 votes
        #16.2 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:30 PM EST
        chitownty

        How do we know every i was dotted and every t was crossed,and no we don't have to agree there was a cover up because as far as I know,none has been proven.As for being rogue or fully approved,it's not a either or situation.Is it not possible that the operation was approved and that elements of the operation went off the reservation.It happens in the military and it happens in law enforcement.

        • 1 vote
        #16.3 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:27 PM EST
        Therese Nelson

        chitownty,

        When Rep Darrell Issa and the Oversight Committee is done, we will know who and what was done.

        There is legislation to remove Eric Holder from his position due to his inept and obstructive actions in Fast and Furious and his job performance.

        • 5 votes
        #16.4 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:30 AM EST
        Libertarian y2k

        this is nothing more than a Republican witch hunt,

        A witch hunt? Perhaps there are GOPers chasing the truth with more zeal then they would if it was one of theirs, but wrong is wrong no matter who does the uncovering. I guess you would agree that Nixon's resignation was due to the trumped up witch hunt by democrats?

        Right is right and wrong is wrong. No matter who uncovers or delivers the truth for whatever their reasons may be. I think they get most big fish that way. Sweat the underlings so they roll on the kingpin. If it was Bush not Obama most of the same people screaming "witch hunt" would be screaming for "impeach/imprison".

        • 6 votes
        #16.5 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:04 PM EST
        Charlie Courtois

        Lib,

        You're right. Wrong is wrong..no matter the stripes.

        We all have to be accountable for what we do...from the bottom to the top!

        • 7 votes
        #16.6 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:06 PM EST
        chitownty

        Therese Nelson:When Mr Issa is done,we won't be any closer to the truth than we are now.By his own admission,even before taking the chair of that committee he as much as said he was going to bury the White House with subpoenas.He may get lucky and harass some people into a resignation or two,but trust me it's all political grandstanding.Funny how all his getting to the truth has to do with some six degrees of separation to the Obama Adminstration.One question though,since he's all into investigating stuff,when is he going to look into the phone hacking scandal of News Corp?

          #16.7 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:50 PM EST
          FlNutmegger

          Into this we inject the Christmas Spirit of the past: Ken Starr! Wonder who this one will be and just how much taxpayer money he/she will waste? :>))

            #16.8 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:35 AM EST
            Therese Nelson

            Dear chit,

            I do not agree, there is legislation signed on from 75 members of Congress to remove Holder due to his loss of "Confidence" in this travesty.

            • 2 votes
            #16.9 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:17 PM EST
            Reply
            drummerboy2011

            The fact that this officer was killed,while tragic,doesn't deter from the fact that this is nothing more than a Republican witch hunt,designed to score political points

            Oh bull@!$%# in a handbasket, this entire operation put lives at jeopardy from the outset and never should have taken place at all. This is a witch hunt only to those of you who believe anyone in the Obama Administration is above the law and should be immune from anything.

            All you're doing is partisan finger pointing, and very wrongly I might add.

            • 8 votes
            Reply#17 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:24 PM EST
            chitownty

            Everyday we put law enforcement in the field,lives are put in jeopardy,so why bother?

              #17.1 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:33 PM EST
              FlNutmegger

              Who's lives?

              • 1 vote
              #17.2 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:36 PM EST
              chitownty

              The lives of law enforcement and depending on the situation,those of the civilian population.

                #17.3 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:46 PM EST
                FlNutmegger

                Thank you.

                  #17.4 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:59 PM EST
                  Therese Nelson

                  chitownty,

                  Your comment

                  Everyday we put law enforcement in the field,lives are put in jeopardy,so why bother?

                  Wow, I guess there is no Justice for our Federal Agents...enlightening.

                  • 5 votes
                  #17.5 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:32 AM EST
                  chitownty

                  WOW,is right.I didn't realize I said that.Could you show me where?

                    #17.6 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:27 PM EST
                    Reply
                    baddestbob

                    you wanna know about some obstruction of justice? how bout the two wars started by the draft dodger in chief and his chickenhawk band of brothers? why aint one of these criminals been sent to jail. as we remember pearl harbor, we should not forget bush dishonor. fast and furious best describes the policy of a wimpy draft evading a$$hole, hell bent on reelection. real men don't start wars. real men finish them. placing a banner which declares victory on a ship does not make it so. i got your goddammed obstruction. it is the unwillingness of anyone to hold bush and cheney legally responsible for the murders they committed.

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#18 - Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:17 AM EST
                    Libertarian y2k

                    If war was murder almost every president would be on death row including our current one.

                    • 3 votes
                    #18.1 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:58 AM EST
                    fedupwithliberals

                    fast and furious best describes the policy of a wimpy draft evading a$$hole, hell bent on reelection.

                    Clinton???

                    • 3 votes
                    #18.2 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:34 PM EST
                    Reply
                    drummerboy2011

                    baddestbob, what a classic finger pointing derail if there ever was one. Try to avoid the obvious at any cost and lay the blame someplace else.

                    Priceless

                    • 9 votes
                    Reply#19 - Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:46 AM EST
                    Robert in Ohio

                    drummerboy

                    Have to agree there, blaming Bush is not going to work for AG Holder this time.

                    • 7 votes
                    #19.1 - Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:35 AM EST
                    Therese Nelson

                    drummerboy + Robert,

                    LOL, the old "Bush did it" sure falls short with this operation Fast + Furious, Bush did have tracking devices and coordinated it with Mexico gov.

                    It is lame.

                    • 5 votes
                    #19.2 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:38 AM EST
                    Olyman

                    Sorry, but it's time to deal with the here and now. It's so easy to derail these arguments by whinning about who did what in the past. Right or wrong, the past can be dealt with in the future, it isn't gonna go anywhere. It's the here and now that we need to be dealing with before there is no future.

                    • 5 votes
                    #19.3 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:43 AM EST
                    Reply
                    Libertarian y2k

                    What I truely don't understand is why Obama hasn't pulled the plug on him way before now. I don't know if it is arrogance, loyalty or something else. But he has waited so long till now it will look bad whether he does or doesn't. This isn't the first time Holder dropped the ball and it probably isn't the first time he has lied either. Obama has ridden this horse too long before switching; he might end up taking a spill with him. It will be fodder for the elections; that is for sure if nothing else.

                    • 5 votes
                    Reply#20 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:56 AM EST
                    Charlie Courtois

                    You are not the only one, Lib.

                    His personal picks are sacrosanct. Only the courts will get him out of there.

                    Obama has nothing to run on, but he will demagogue his opponent with his one billion dollars. That's a lot of money to wage a war of deceit and lies. It will be the dirtiest in our history.

                    • 5 votes
                    #20.1 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:01 PM EST
                    DS12

                    If I was a liberatarian or republican or Tp I might agree with you but I let truth come out not let it be fed to me by the rightwrong message machine....until then I will wait and see...then decide on facts not on partisian politics....That is Just ME....not a tried and true follower of the rightwing proganda follower message machine pied piper mice.

                      #20.2 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:09 PM EST
                      Therese Nelson

                      Dear DS,

                      Wow, there is a Fed Agent dead, multiple Fed employees were whistle blowers.

                      What do you want?

                      • 3 votes
                      #20.3 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:21 PM EST
                      DS12

                      Dear Therese,

                      I want the whole truth out before I will make a judgement. See 1.23

                        #20.4 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:25 PM EST
                        Therese Nelson

                        DS,

                        Here is facts from Wikipedia on the lawyer Firm Eric Holder worked for. Eric Holder defended Terrorists.

                        Atty Gen Eric Holder defense of Terrorists + the Pro Bono work of his firm,they are all left/liberal causes?

                        Articles in part and link

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covington_%26_Burling

                        Partner Eric Holder in 2007 defended Chiquita International Brands against lawsuits brought by relatives of people slain by terrorists and paramilitia belonging to the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia, which Chiquita paid for protection.[11][12] Holder had previously helped Chiquita negotiate a felony plea bargain, accepted by U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth, in a criminal prosecution by the federal government for one count of supporting a designated terrorist organization. The plea involved a fine of $25 million USD, also entailing 5 years probation. Chiquita became the first major U.S. corporation to be convicted of financing terrorism. After the settlement, U.S. Assistant Attorney Jonathan Malis said the $1.7 million in payments "fueled violence" and "paid for weapons and ammunition to kill innocent people." Holder stressed that Chiquita had asked the Department of Justice in 2003 if the payments should be stopped.[13]

                        The firm’s recent pro bono matters include:

                        • Preparing an amicus brief on behalf of a number of social scientists in the Cook v. Rumsfeld case challenging the military’s don't ask, don't tell policy
                        • Primary pro bono counsel for TeachAIDS, a nonprofit which has developed a new method for global HIV/AIDS prevention education

                        [edit] Representation of Guantanamo Bay inmates

                        Attorneys at Covington & Burling have been Guantanamo Bay attorneys for Ahmed al-Ghailani[22] fifteen Yemenis, one Pakistani, and one Algerian being held at Guantanamo Bay. The firm obtained favorable rulings that detainees have rights under the Fifth Amendment and the Geneva Conventions.[23] The court ruled in March 2005 that the government could not transfer detainees from Guantanamo Bay to foreign custody without first giving the prisoners a chance to challenge the move in court.

                        According to The American Lawyer's annual pro bono survey, Covington lawyers spent 3,022 hours on Guantánamo litigation in 2007, "the firm's largest pro bono project that year". Lawyers from the firm who have become administration officials have been advised by ethics officials to recuse themselves in matters involving detainees represented by their former firms, but not from policy issues where they were not personally and substantially involved. Lanny Breuer is one of those who has had to recuse on from some matters since leaving the firm for a government position. Covington also co-authored one of three petitioners' briefs filed in Boumediene v. Bush, "and was responsible for several detainee victories" in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit. "At least one high-ranking appointee played a key role in advancing detainees' rights," but they did not participate in litigation over the Guantanamo Bay prison itself.[24]

                        • 1 vote
                        #20.5 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:44 PM EST
                        DS12

                        Therese Eric Holder did his job as a lawyer just as many do everyday. Fast and Furious investigation is just getting started and apparently it has links to the previous administration but that is not important to some it is conviction before all the information gets out for this democratic administration. Past incidents under republican administrations don't get the same attention from conservatives just like this isn't getting the same attention by liberals....everyone only gets up in arms when it is not their political administration. I do remember AG Gonzales lying to congress's face and he still maintained the confidence of his boss Pres Bush and no one from the right were really calling for his firing but that is politics.

                        If a soldier is accused of committing a crime in a country we do not have a SOFA agreement with does he not deserve an attorney whether or not guilty. I have no love of terrorists but i understand the slippery slope that can occur if we can point a finger and say your guilty because we "think' you are guilty.

                        I will say again if...IF...all the information points to Holder I will call for his resignation or firing until then I will wait.

                        • 2 votes
                        #20.6 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:12 PM EST
                        Reply
                        Therese Nelson

                        Eric Holder states his opinion of Terrorist Attorneys links and article in part

                        http://nation.foxnews.com/attorney-general-eric-holder/2010/03/19/holder-terrorist-lawyers-are-patriots

                        Holder: Terrorist Lawyers Are 'Patriots'

                        Two weeks after a conservative group disparaged Justice Department lawyers who previously represented terror suspects, Attorney General Eric Holder on Friday weighed in for the first time, calling such lawyers "patriots."

                        Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/attorney-general-eric-holder/2010/03/19/holder-terrorist-lawyers-are-patriots#ixzz1gjkVxUjZ

                        “Those who reaffirm our nation’s most essential and enduring values do not deserve to have their own values questioned,” Holder told a group of lawyers who offer "pro bono," or voluntary, legal services. "Let me be clear about this: Lawyers who provide counsel for the unpopular are, and should be treated as what they are: patriots."

                        Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/attorney-general-eric-holder/2010/03/19/holder-terrorist-lawyers-are-patriots#ixzz1gjjqOm2B

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#21 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:49 PM EST
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